Over on the de-con site, Zachary and I have been having a prolonged conversation in the comments to a wonderful article. We haven’t been on the topic of that article, though, except incidentally. After a little encouragement, I decided it would be best to continue on my own blog, so here we go.
Zachary’s last message to me:
1) The uncaused cause:
“If it is a subdivision, it is finite (limited to within that subdivision).”
Your right! Thats why true infinity is only God. God is Infinity in quality, order, and quantity. As i said before though infinity, as we use it, is God in reference to quantity only.
“I think I know what you’re trying to say, but could you add a verb to that sentence to help me out?
lol yeah I am a total dork. it’s a wonder how people ever understand me. : p. Anyway, I was saying God is unsubdivided quantity, order (or direction of movment), and quality. I really don’t know how else to say it.
3) God’s self-revelation:
“So, it has nothing to do with our choice, but that of someone who came before us?”
Original sin or nature sin does was not originated by us .
“By the way, do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve happened as depicted in Genesis?”
Yes, though i do think I depart from some traditional views. There are many things I am not sure of about it and I am willing to be corrected by someone I trust on the issue. I believe the jist of it in the tradisional way though.
“Why are we not born into the nature that Christ (the second Adam) chose?”
Because we are not begotton of Christ nature naturally, but trusting (belief) in knowledge that is taught(faith) of Christ. We have relationship with Jesus by our humanity, and by that relationship we can choose to follow Him as God or not if we have been lead to the ablility to make that choice. This is how we Have knowledge of God as he is not just partial knowledge of His existence.
“Not really. It is either up to us, or up to God. If it depends on our choice, then our salvation is by our own action (the act of choosing).”
It make sense to me. Maybe I am missing somethng, but to me if God has to do something to bring you to that choice, and God made that choice possible, and God is that choice. Seems like it’s is by grace through faith to me.
“If I can’t find Christ, I can’t follow Him. If I can’t understand His will, I can’t submit to it. I can be as willing as anything or anyone, but I can’t listen to someone who does not speak.”
Well, you do have an understanding of what he want, which is to love God with all your heart mind soul and strength. The you have the bible and other Christians and virtues men athiest or pagan or what have you, and all creation to lead you to know him once you have the basis of knowledge. You start by pretending to be like Christ, till you learn to be like Him. Till you habits and knolwedge line up with your intetion.
“Interesting theology. Could you expand on that?”
I will go into it next chance i can i gtg my times up.
I’ll respond to this as soon as I can, Zachary. I’m visiting my parents this weekend, though, and can’t promise I’ll get to this before early next week.
Ok I am going to begone for a while myself. How long I really don’t know. I have gotten alot of mixed information.
As for how God uses evil:
We all have heard the verse: “All things work together for good for those who love the Lord.” (I don’ t have the bible memorised enough to give you a verses). That’s pretty straitforward that every lack and good helps restore the condition, or to bless the condition of those who love I AM. This is also suported by romans when it says that the vessles of wrath exist to show mercy on the vessles of mercy (God, allows those who will never love Him to contiue existence to be a means of grace to those who will. Romans also states where everythere is sin grace abounds. Finally this is suported, when the bible states that Christ will not return untill He has made His enemies his footstool, something that allows Him to show His greatness to the world. Also there is a verse that say what man intended for evil God intended for Good.
1) The uncaused cause:
“If it is a subdivision, it is finite (limited to within that subdivision).”
Your right! Thats why true infinity is only God. God is Infinity in quality, order, and quantity. As i said before though infinity, as we use it, is God in reference to quantity only.
By referencing to quantity only, you have created a subdivision of infinite infinity. You are describing God as finite and limited, no more infinite than an ordered chain of possible numbers.
Anyway, I was saying God is unsubdivided quantity, order (or direction of movment), and quality. I really don’t know how else to say it.
So far, you have said that God is being, quality and quantity. There is such a thing as being. There is such a thing as quality. There is such a thing as quantity. None of these things have any consciousness. None of these are things we can form an intimate relationship with.
3) God’s self-revelation:
Original sin or nature sin does was not originated by us .
Thus it is not the result of our choice.
“Why are we not born into the nature that Christ (the second Adam) chose?”
Because we are not begotton of Christ nature naturally, but trusting (belief) in knowledge that is taught(faith) of Christ.
So, if Christ had kids, his descendants would be begotten of his nature instead of Adam’s? And if Christ came before Adam and Eve had children, and had children by Eve instead of Adam doing so, there might be no original sin, fallen nature, or any suffering at all?
It make sense to me. Maybe I am missing somethng, but to me if God has to do something to bring you to that choice, and God made that choice possible, and God is that choice. Seems like it’s is by grace through faith to me.
Sounds more like faith through grace to me, than the other way around. If it is faith through grace, then it is God’s choice, not ours. We have nothing to brag about (as Paul often said) but we have much to blame God for (all those who have not been given the gift of faith).
Well, you do have an understanding of what he want, which is to love God with all your heart mind soul and strength.
That means absolutely nothing unless I know what God is.
The you have the bible and other Christians and virtues men athiest or pagan or what have you, and all creation to lead you to know him once you have the basis of knowledge
The bible which is filled with stories of intolerance, hatred and destruction, virtues which the bible says can not save me, and creation filled with suffering and pain. What help is any of that?
As for how God uses evil:
The bible says a lot of things to justify God’s actions or lack thereof. Why should I believe any of it? The bible never gives any of God’s reasons. It just says God has reasons we don’t (or can’t) know. How can we trust that? If a man caused suffering, ordered killing, then ignored those in pain when he could help them, we would call that man evil, even if he said he had reasons we had no way of understanding. On what basis do we judge God differently?
Ok I am going to begone for a while myself. How long I really don’t know. I have gotten alot of mixed information.
I hope to hear from you soon, Zachary. If only to know you’re still all right over there.
1) The uncaused cause:
“By referencing to quantity only, you have created a subdivision of infinite infinity. You are describing God as finite and limited, no more infinite than an ordered chain of possible numbers.”
Yes but that is the aligorical nature of languge. To use something else that has a similarity to explain a subdivsion or a thing like it.
“So far, you have said that God is being, quality and quantity. There is such a thing as being. There is such a thing as quality. There is such a thing as quantity. None of these things have any consciousness. None of these are things we can form an intimate relationship with. ”
I said order too (or direction). The thing is, direction, quality, and quanity, contain everything as a subdivsion. Now, direction implies a director which has intent. Now, primry intent is not caused from a higher thing, but it is of the thing. This is the will, intention of it’s self. Now, spiritual substances are subdivsions of God’s will, angels intellect and will without any matterial accidentail (accedentail is a form with intent but not of it’s self) form given to them. Humans, have both acciedentail form and spiritual or (actual form). They are a subdivsion of both. Now the thing is that the only thing that can be intended truely is God or a subdivdion of God, so when man choice to not intend God they became self contradictory in their nature.
3) God’s self-revelation:
“So, if Christ had kids, his descendants would be begotten of his nature instead of Adam’s? And if Christ came before Adam and Eve had children, and had children by Eve instead of Adam doing so, there might be no original sin, fallen nature, or any suffering at all?”"
Maybe, it’s not soemthing i have thought about, you have the problem of the female. I would have to think about it more but their are a couple contradictions that seem pop up right away like because it is begotten of both of them do they only beget what is shared i.e. adam’s nature? And if they don’t isn’t that forcibley overider her nature? And if their is a female Christ they seem to be just making a new man not fixing the old, and with all of the time in the world there is no need for that now that i can see? It would add alot of confusion. But thats just a superfiial look at it.
“Sounds more like faith through grace to me, than the other way around. ”
By, in this case, means the power to have faith by leading them to the choice not forcing it. Trust is something that requires choice, because it deals with the unknown. Why people true is always somewhat arbitrary.
If it is faith through grace, then it is God’s choice, not ours. We have nothing to brag about (as Paul often said) but we have much to blame God for (all those who have not been given the gift of faith).”
Yes, if it is forced by God then their is no choice, but because, as i have said, it is leading then God brings about the posibility of that choice.
“The bible which is filled with stories of intolerance, hatred and destruction, virtues which the bible says can not save me, and creation filled with suffering and pain. What help is any of that?”
Your right, thats why Christ is the only hope, after that basis then the rest lead you to God.
As for how God uses evil:
The bible says a lot of things to justify God’s actions or lack thereof. Why should I believe any of it? The bible never gives any of God’s reasons. It just says God has reasons we don’t (or can’t) know. How can we trust that? If a man caused suffering, ordered killing, then ignored those in pain when he could help them, we would call that man evil, even if he said he had reasons we had no way of understanding. On what basis do we judge God differently?”
Hope is the basis of the choice. If you hope that it is true, that evrythign God does is justified, even though in your falable use of logic or interpritation you don’t quite see it, if you hope that Christ really is what he claims, and you put your trust in that hope, which because of the lack of knowledge and the implications, it is arbitrary, you have believed. From there you can say “Lord i believe help my unbelief.”. Or you can say that your logic in this case is better than the hope offered, and “being blind, claim to see.”. That is the choice.
“I hope to hear from you soon, Zachary. If only to know you’re still all right over there.”
Thanks for the thought. I am still good, I am in rather quite part of iraq.
Yes but that is the aligorical nature of languge. To use something else that has a similarity to explain a subdivsion or a thing like it.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.
Now, direction implies a director which has intent.
No it doesn’t. Gravity, for example, is a director that imposes direction, but it has no intent.
Zachary, once again we are just repeating ourselves and have gone nowhere but back to where we began.
I wrote that summary on the fifth. Since then, we have added,
4) Christ’s salvific act:
Quester: It was ineffective at best. At worst, it was unnecessary.
Zachary: It was God’s greatest gift, and could only have been given in this way.
To reach a conclusion: I have to convince you that the story of Christ’s salvific act makes no sense as written, or you have to convince me that it does.
We haven’t gotten anywhere on the first three points. We’ve simply added a fourth. While this has been fun, we haven’t said anything new in a while. We’re just repeating ourselves. I’ve learned a few things, and refined a few thoughts, but if we have nothing new to say, I’m just going to grow in frustration if we continue. I don’t want that.
I am still good, I am in rather quite part of iraq.
I am glad for that.
Ok. Well it was very good talking with you. Thanks for hearing out the other side, it’s something that doesn’t happen often. Take care.
[...] *It’s been finished on this web site: http://ajourneyman.wordpress.com/2008/04/11/a-conversation-with-zachary/ [...]
You too, Zachary. If it helps, while I’ve been packing, I found out I own Believing in God, a book that includes portions of different books arguing for and against God’s existence. In it, I’ve read the portion of the Summa where Aquinas gives his five proofs for the existence of God. It helped me understand where you were coming from, though I still disagree.